Other Transcripts:

Ajata/No Creation

Saturday January 4, 2003

Satsang with Cee

Cee: Traditionally, why we are here is explained in three different ways. One is the law of karma, cause and effect. Something happens and causes something else to happen, and things continue to happen on and on. That is one way to explain to people why we exist. If you believe this way you will keep going on and on. [Laughter] Cause and effect is operative as long as you believe in it, as long as you feel you are a person with actions that cause effects.

Now, a higher way to understand this Existence is that everything is spontaneously arising. This is a higher way because you can understand yourself not to be a subject embodied in a human form. There is Consciousness and manifestation appears spontaneously to that Consciousness. This way could also be called the witness position.

  We spoke the other day about the three states of mind, how we could consider them thoughts. Each state of mind you could just consider as a thought. It is actually a bundle of thoughts, but if you understand in this way then you see that those states of minds -- deep dreamless sleep, dream state, and the waking state -- come and go, as a thought comes and goes, on what's Real. There is something that does not come and go, the pure Consciousness. So if you can come to a place of witnessing these three states, you are in a much higher and freer position.

The witness does not judge. The witness just witnesses and things appear to be spontaneously arising. This is far beyond what most religions teach. Most religions teach the first one, which is cause and effect. God created us and we better be good! [Laughter] To come to this other way of viewing life -- that everything is spontaneously arising to a witness -- sets you free because you are not identifying with the small individual self as much, and you stand back non-attached to whatever seems to occur. Just as in a dream if you ever get to be in a witness position in your dream, you see there is a character and a whole realm of stuff happening, but you are just kind of above and beyond, witnessing it, and there is no judgment. That way of understanding Existence is closer to the pure Consciousness that we are.

It is kind of interesting if you consider this spontaneously arising, say right this present moment, there is something aware that is witnessing this apparent arising. However, how real is the actual arising? Think of yesterday. It seems so real, at that moment, whatever we were doing, that eating, that talking etc. Where is it now? Just like you are at this moment, there seems to be some people in this room, spontaneously arising on this pure Consciousness. When we leave, where is this? It is just like a movie. You cannot even consider it real for that little moment that it seems to be arising, not even then.

You could say each moment is real as it is experienced, but how real is that? In other words, discriminate right here and now between what is arising and the pure Consciousness. As anything arises, discriminate between the arising and the pure Consciousness, and you can see how you, yourself, have to be the pure Consciousness which is more real than the arising. Once Nome said to me "Eliminate everything witnessed from the witness." So this higher perspective is a way of understanding more and more what is real, what is always there, what is true, what really, really is your true Self? Is your true Self arising?

I have a little reading. This is just amazingly fascinating. So Bhagavan [Ramana Maharshi] is explaining why the three states come and go on what is Real, the silent and always existing Self. States of mind pass on That. The states of mind cannot be real and so you want to abide in That which is unchanging. Someone asks Bhagavan, "But why should these three states come and go on the Real State or the screen of the Self? Why should they even appear and disappear?" Bhagavan replies, "Who puts the question?"  

If you are questioning deeply what are these three states? Are they coming and going? If you find yourself witnessing the states of consciousness, look inside yourself, again, there. For the highest Realization, truly, you need to inquire there, right into what seems to be the witness. There is not much identity as the witness, but there is still a subject and object. [Quoting Ramana Maharshi again:] "Who puts this question? Does the Self say that these states come and go? It is the seer who says these states come and go. The seer and seen together constitute the mind. See if there is such a thing as the mind. Then the mind merges in the Self and there is neither the seer nor the seen. "

So the real answer to your question is - guess what? They neither come nor go! This is just so mind blowing, since there is no mind. This does blow the mind away. [Laughter] The states of mind neither come nor go. They only seem to come and go.

[Quoting Ramana Maharshi again:] "The Self alone remains as it ever is. The three states owe their existence to non-inquiry, and inquiry puts an end to them. However much one may explain the fact, it will not be clear until one attains Self-Realization and wonders how one was blind to the Self- evident and the only Existence for so long. " They neither come nor go.

So that leads us to the third way you can actually understand Existence, itself, Ajata or "no creation." No creation -- this is the highest teaching. That is why there are so few people at Master Nome's place after so long. It is the highest teaching. It is only really heard by a few. Actually, it is really heard by no one. So in Ajata, "no creation," the states of mind neither come nor go, and it is when you rest deeply as that pure Being that you truly are, that nothing ever arises in it. It just is as it is. The experience of That is untellable Bliss. It is the same experience we all have in deep meditation, the experience prior to thought, when there is just that pure Existence. That is who we really are. Nothing comes nor goes in it. There is no creation. Then you understand.

If you wait for your vasanas to wind down, to end, you are coming back to that first point of view of cause and effect. Liberation has got to be in the moment. Do not wait for it to occur at some point in the future. You may be waiting many, many lifetimes. That is believing in cause and effect. It is the false belief in an unreal "I" that has "something to do," or "something to attain" to make the illusory "I" free. Realization of our true Self is simply just coming into our own Existence as we already are. Do not wait. Just do not wait. Dive deeply into your own Existence and abide there. Sometimes long-time practitioners actually fully know what the Self is, innately know, and yet there is some kind of a movement that says, "It is not okay for me. " Or, "Not now!" Or, "Sometime in the future. " Or, "Let us just wait for a few more vasanas to wind down. " Or, "I want to do a few of these things that pleasurize me, then I can be really happy. " [Laughter]

All those thoughts are just an activity that obscures what is already fully there for all of us all the time. That is just mind. And when you see there is no mind, there really is no creation. There really is no creation. The scriptures do not just say that. It is actually the literal truth. Then you will not be waiting for something to wind down, to end, or get better in order for you to realize. You need to make this Realization your own in every moment.

Sometimes, people think, "It is okay for sages but it is not okay for me," or something like that. I do not know. People think all kinds of things, but the Self means myself, for each one, the Self, me, myself, I. [Laughter] So, as the Maharshi and Nome say, "When one just stops adding these layers on "I" or making "I" into something, that pure "I" that we are, "I" just plain old is. It is just pure Being. " It is the bottom line. It is just the Consciousness as is, your very own plain Consciousness with nothing added, no concepts of who "I" is. No creation, you see? Whenever you create a little concept on that "I," then you are spinning off into all kinds of stuff.

  So it is exactly as the sages say. You look deeply into the core of your own Existence, just plain old that, your own Existence. Sometimes we call it the first person, and very simply, if you just think about it, everything that has ever been experienced has been experienced by you, yourself, that "I." You alone exist. It is so simple. It is so simple. You alone exist. Furthermore, it is the same "I" in all. All of us have that very same Existence. It is awesome. It is just awesome. It is the same Self, right here. There is only One here. It is free. It is so free to just be what we are with nothing added.

Then the obvious question to "No Creation" is, "Well, then why is there all this stuff?" However, there really is not any "stuff" when you actually inquire in this way and rest as pure Being because all this "stuff" is actually made up of pure Being, your own Being. It is all the same. It is all your Self. One explanation for that question would be to say, "Everything is gold and all these things are ornaments. All these objects are ornaments. It is all the same pure Consciousness. It is all the same gold. It all melts down to the same thing. It is all made out of the same thing." Nothing is created. How could something be created when it is all the same stuff? Nothing could be created within something that is just what it is. There is no second thing that ever occurs. You can see how cause and effect cannot even happen. How could there be a something that causes a something else when there are no two things to begin with? Even just looking at nature, obviously everything changes and dissolves and reoccurs out of the same stuff. How can there really be cause and effect when everything is that same pure Consciousness? It is actually very logical and very literal, this Existence. How could there be any other teaching? It is Existence, Itself, that we are talking about, our own Existence. There is no other Truth to find. There are no words good enough for it because it is just this Being, just this pure Existence.

So I encourage you to deeply meditate, and I know that you know because you are not people. [Laughter] All of you know that joy of deep meditation, that samadhi that we go in, where nothing is arising. That actually Is. We do not go into it. That is who we are. That pure Being is who we are. You can see from deep meditation, there is no creation. Nothing arises there. We call it a "there," but nothing arises in this pure Being. It is not a place we go to and come out of. That is who we are, and what comes and goes on it is this thinking "Oh, I am a somebody and I am going to get up and leave the room and do my stuff." Actually, that pure Consciousness, Being, is the only thing that is occurring. We cannot even say it is occurring. It just is. So to go deeply into this meditation and experience this as your Self is very important. You can see how there is no creation there. Anything else created on top of that is your own creation, and no one else is responsible for that creation except you who is creating it, which we call mind or the ego.

It is important, therefore, to discriminate between this pure Being in deep, deep meditation and some little flutter of arising. That first arising is the arising of an "I." If you can discriminate really finely, right there, between Being and arising, you will understand creation, because that is the moment of creation, right there! And you create it yourself! No one else creates it! It is the "I." That is why we go deeply into our own sense of "I" because right beyond -- or behind, we could say -- the "I" is that pure Existence, where there is no individualized "I." This is the bottom line. This is really all that ever is.

So it is a matter of looking into "I." Whatever you think "I" is, if it seems to be a body, inquire, "Who is aware of that body?" If it seems to be a thought, a movement, or an energy that seems to hold that sense of identity, inquire, "Who is aware of that identity? Go deeper and deeper into the Existence, itself. The Existence is never an object. It is always the subject. So you go deep, deep, deep into, you could say, the "feeling" of Being. In this way, you eliminate all the objects that are illusory and binding. It is not that you have to annihilate or kill the ego. It is simply that the ego is not really there. You see it as an object and you know it cannot be true, because who is looking at that ego? The clearer you can look at the ego -- well, see if you can look at the ego! [Laughter] Who is looking? Like that.



So if you think of this room, these apparent people in it, as something spontaneously arising, right this very moment, inquire, "Who is aware of that?" What is aware is Awareness, the Awareness that we are - - Awareness-Being-Consciousness-Bliss. Bliss is inherent in just this Awareness. How wonderful!

So, let us talk if you want. Feel free, if you want, to ask a question or say anything about your experience.

Q: Cee, this was a wonderful discourse. It points to an area of confusion in my own experience, namely, the seeming reality of the "arising" of what is objectively perceived. I have asked of Nome about this "arising," and his response to me essentially is the question, "How can you have arising from That which is inherently changeless and eternal? How can there be an arising from That which is changeless and infinite, there being nothing outside of That to act upon it?" Even with the realization though there is no "I", no ego-I, and therefore no object, in my direct experience, there still is this arising of sense objects. For example, there is, at this very moment, the sound of fire engine sirens whether or not I put the label "siren" upon the hearing. There is always seeing if this body's eyes are open. There may not be a "seer" or a "seen," but there is a seeing, hearing, touching, feeling. That is always my direct experience, no matter how deep my meditation may be. A clash of thunder is another example. That appears in Consciousness. I never reach the level of Consciousness where sensing disappears whether it may be a car backfiring or any number of other sense perceptions. I never get beyond that to the place where all that dissolves. That is frustrating to me as I hear about the world disappearing in deep meditation. It is not my experience that the "I" arises first and therefore, thereafter, all else appears. The response of the sages is to investigate, "For whom is the seeing?" "For whom is the seen?" No matter how deep I go into the realization that there is no such thing as an "I," no such thing as an ego-I -- no matter how deep I go - there are sounds, sights, smells and all that stuff that comes through this body that seems too real to deny.

Cee: What do you think you are going to find in this enlightenment? You have been at it for such a long time, deeply, with great intention and frustration. Believe me, I can relate to that. When you really ask yourself, what is it that you want? What are you trying to find? Why are you seeking?

Q: I feel like I've found it. I am aware of the Background, the Substratum as my true Identity. Furthermore, I am aware that That, alone, exists and I am aware that That alone is present throughout all the states of mind. It is unshakably present in all three states; it is the only thing that truly…

Cee: Well then, just stop there for a second. If that's true then…

Q: That is true in my experience…

Cee: Then what is the problem with the seeing and hearing or experiencing? In other words, you know the Background, pure Consciousness, is who you are…

Q: That alone is real…

Cee: Then, so what if there is some seeing and hearing going on?

Q: I am clear that the seeing and hearing comes and goes, and therefore is not real. That Substatum is clearly untouched, unmodified, and unaffected by this coming and going. I get the impression that you and Nome, however, are at the space where there are no other things coming and going…

Cee: Yes, yes, yes, I see what you are saying.

Q: …and until I get to that space, where there is no "arising," I will not experience the "unutterable Bliss," spoken of by sages and that you obviously experience. For me, that "Bliss," is only experienced as peace. I hear, however, that the true Bliss is so far beyond.

Cee: See how "that bliss" in itself is an idea in your head?

Q: Yea, it is.

Cee: So, on the level of Chris, the body, there will be seeing, hearing, eating, and drinking. There is no need to have excess attention on trying to change something that is going to happen on this physical level. In other words, if you look for it to change here, in this dream, you will be looking forever. It is not going to change here!

Q: Do you just allow what arises to arise, and simply remain identified as the Background?

Cee: Yes. Well, then stop right there.

Q: And let it go. Stop. Allow that to be. Then stop.

Cee: You don't need to add thoughts like, "Sages feel Bliss in a certain way," or, "It needs to look in a certain way." All that is superfluous. It is all about your point of view. Consider. Sages, anybody, people, they are all arising in your own Consciousness.

Q: That is true.

Cee: This is a dream. You do not want to take what somebody in your dream says it is supposed to be like.

Q: That is true.

Cee: You want it to be YOU, your own Existence, your own experience. That is why I am saying you just need to give it to yourself. You already know what it is. Stop adding. It is just a thought. They are just thoughts that you are adding. You do not need to add, "Oh! I do not have it," or "Oh! It has to look this way." You are talking about Existence. How can Existence look any particular way? Existence-Consciousness -- it is the same. It cannot look any way. It is not going to feel like anything, any particular thing; and there is nobody feeling.

Q: Right.

Cee: It is just Existence. Sometimes people who practice Advaita get tired of asking, "Who?" However, you do not want this teaching to get to be like some dead old Catholicism that does not work for anybody.

Q: Exactly

Cee: You want to do what works for you, yourself. Do not put your spiritual life here and your other life over there. It has to be the one Existence.
You have to trust yourself. Trust your own experience. Do not do what anyone else says. Scriptures are useful. Teachers are useful, but the bottom line is you, yourself.

Do not add these things like, "I cannot get it!" or "I don't have it yet," or whatever. All that is thought. You do not need those thoughts. Rest in that Bliss. You know who you are. Do not waste any more time thinking you do not. It is not going to look like it looks for anyone else. It is exactly what it is for you; and you innately know it. Know it, deeply. Know it on the deepest, deepest level, already. If any doubt arises, know that it is just a thought. Disidentify with that thought and you are right back into Bliss, or whatever you want to call it. The word "Bliss" may be overrated.

Q: Tranquility is good. However, when I read some of these reports from the sages of their depth of their Bliss, I compare and contrast in my mind and then "I" feel cheated that "my" meditation just ends up in a calm, sweet, gentle tranquility that's very…

Cee: What you just now said, I had to laugh: "Mine is just pure Silence." You know! Do you know how deep that is to be somewhere that is perfectly calm? It is not a somewhere. The Existence is more like deep, deep peace than some kind of fireworks, because fireworks come and go. The deep Existence does not come and go. There is no label you can put on it. Every description we say falls short. Nevertheless, it is still just exactly your Existence, just as it is. Nobody is experiencing anything.

Q: I find that waiting always.

Cee: So…Is somebody cheated? [Laughter] The idea that somebody is cheated is definitely a concept you do not need! Some "other existence" or "somebody else's existence" is a little better than yours. You want to get the "big existence," "the biggest existence there is. "

Q: A bigger piece of the pie! [Laughter]

Another questioner: When the mind becomes still as a result of doing the Self-inquiry. I find there is still a subtle "I" that is saying, "This is so wonderful! I just want to go deeper and deeper into this state." How can I stay in Beingness and get rid of the "I" that is witnessing the joy and the peace of no-mind? I still have this duality that I am trying to get rid of. I know there is no "I" to get rid of but I am not quite sure if I have phrased it right, but I am sure you get the meaning of what I'm trying to say.

Cee: There is a teaching that says, "You need to go beyond Bliss," or "Bliss is the first sheath." However, I have heard Nome say, and I tend to go with this, "You do not need to worry about getting rid of bliss [Laughter]. Just stay right there, and if there is some little voice saying, 'I want to go deeper,' what is wrong with that?" Just go deeper. If you go deeper there will not even be a little voice anymore. Go ahead! The extra thoughts like, "I need to get rid of this little voice." That is an extra thought. Just go deeper! You do not need the extra thought.

Q: Sometimes that little voice just says something that is just a distraction.

Cee: Oh! Who is aware of the little voice? Something is aware of the voice.

Q: That is the Awareness.

Cee: See how the little voice is an object of the Awareness? Go in to the Awareness. What is aware of the little voice? See how that is vaster and more real? Keep going that way. It is in the right direction. It is very simple, Remember to inquire, "Who Am I?" "Who Am I," is actually the tool. If you imagine you have lost your way, you go back to "Who am I," and you are always deeper. It is - Oh! - it is the most gracious, beautiful Teaching, absolutely, so clearly taught by the Maharshi and Master Nome, perfect. Does that help?

Q: Yes, thanks very much. Thank you.

Another Questioner: I was just flashing this morning, I used to go and see Nome a long time ago when he was still in San Bruno, about 22 years ago, and the one thing that seems to come back to me repeatedly is that he used to say, "If you only want Realization and nothing but Realization then nothing can stop you; but if you want Realization and something else, you will always get the something else. "

Cee: Mmmm. True.

Q: That keeps coming back to me.

Cee: Beautiful. Thank you. Like, we need Realization "with extra special bliss!" [Laughter]

Another Q: And some ice cream. [Laughter]
Ice cream that does not melt. [Laughter]

Cee: Everlasting, unborn ice cream.

[Short break]

Conversation in progress with Another Questioner:

Cee: That Beingness, that pure Existence IS yourself whether things arise or not. It is all about Identity. If you take that subtle first little movement of something to be yourself, inquire! You do not have to believe that to be yourself. You can stay with the pure Existence…

Q: There is that Existence, and in that Beingness is Identity. OK? One knows it as one's true Self.

Cee: Yes, these are the words we use. You know what I am saying. It is not an identity like anything we know objectively.

Q: I know. But there is a Presence that is not like something or anything foreign…

Cee: Yes!

Q: That is what I mean by Identity, like that, that I AM, because I am not just witnessing this. I AM That!

Cee: Yes, Yes Exactly! It is a matter of deep, innate Knowledge.

Q: And there is the Beingness-Bliss. So when I was looking for words, the word that came to me was contentment, abidance as that Being, abidance in Existence, and that Bliss. Why go anywhere else?

Cee: Exactly

Q: And so, one knows that as one's true Self. But then when one goes out into the world, or….

Cee: Yes. I understand. We all know what we are talking about here, but the words…

Q: When one goes into the world, one feels that there's a need for this "I," this experiencing "I," that it is somehow needed, that we cannot just stay in our True State, without needing this I-thought. However, it simply is not needed! It is so evident that it is not needed. When we had that previous deep experienceless experience -- and one needs to figure that out -- just stop it! It is not that the "I-thought" is not needed. The Truth is, that false "I" is not really there. It is but an objectively cognized thought that never ever came to be.

Cee: That is exactly right, kind of like what we talked about today about "no creation," and how Maharshi said the states of mind neither come nor go.

Q: And there is not even the "me," being in meditation.

Cee: Yes. There is not. Even though it seems it might be, there is not.

Q: And so, deeply questioning the experiencer, deeply inquiring, "Is there an experiencer experiencing anything?" "Is there an experiencer experiencing anything," and that inquiry brings you right back to it. Russ had said when I asked about seeing how Being pervades all thoughts or experiences, and feeling that, then one loses one's sense of experiencing. So I asked him, "How do you get that with any kind of thought, not just with experienced thought where one hears the Bart sound, but all kinds of thought, like when one is talking and interacting at work?" He said, "Just eliminate the subject and the object. If you eliminate the individual experiencer, then his or her object automatically goes. It is just knowing that Knowledge alone is and that that nothing else is really going on."

Cee: I was thinking you could use the teaching we had today about the three ways to experience your own Existence. If you find yourself in a state at work where it seems there is cause and effect, stand as the witness. For a deeper, more expanded understanding, move up to the witness and take yourselof out of the movie. So take yourself out of the whole situation as a separate being, and just be the witness. Things may still appear to be going on, but that gives you a degree of freedom and non-attachment. If you want more freedom, go within deeper. Inquire more deeply to see that there is not anything arising at all! That is always there. "No creation" is the case. The Self, alone is. The Self is the case. No matter how we confuse it, confound it, suffer, appear to suffer within it, still we always are the Self, always, always, always, always. If you think you are not, it is just a thought. It is just confusion. So maybe we could use that as a way to help us. Remember these three ways of understanding Existence, to take you a notch up, or deeper, however you want to label it. Do you have an experience of the witness, of being an impartial witness?

Q: Yes.

Cee: You know what that is so--

Q: When I try to get rid of the "experiencer," I end up in a kind of thought-free state…

Cee: Oh! And then "you" cannot do your job [Laughter]? Maybe somebody would do it if you just let go. See, there is no problem if you think you are a person for a while. It is not a problem. There still is only the Self.

Q: I wanted to ask one other thing. How was it for you, before Realization, what was the practice like?

Cee: Well, interesting, because there was not a person, in the first place. You are like... "What! How could I have confused myself with that imaginary thought?"

Q: Does it become clearer and clearer at that point that there is no person and Existence absorbs one's focus or Being?

Cee: It is just exactly the way it is for you, the pure Being. See right now how you are asking a dream character what her experience of Existence is? [Laughter] It is your existence! For the apparent Cee, it is exactly the same as it is for you in deep meditation. It is the same One. These creatures are non-existent. It is just this pure Existence. That's it! To think "a person" gets "enlightened" is just the silliest thing in the world. How could an illusory person get something like that? (Silence)

So let us just spend some time in meditation.